* From Sabrina Zirkle to Everyone: (09:32 AM)
Mine was able to work!
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:36 AM)
I was really interested in the implicit ratings and satisfaction of the logs — i thought about spotify a bit
mostly because spotify seems to know my music taste 100% and all the recommended songs are amazing, but ive had it for years so its built to like know me more i feel
* From Me to Everyone: (09:37 AM)
I agree that music is a real frontier. I liked the part that mentioned even different times create different preferences
* From Me to Everyone: (09:38 AM)
Has anyone every changed their Spotify or gotten a new account and noticed the difference in what is recommended?
I’m also interested in the metaphors that are used in the article
Mason wondered about the metaphor of traps, thinking it might be too negagive
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:39 AM)
I’ve noticed changes over time, not on Spotify, but on Youtube. Youtube especially seems to recognize the content you’re currently “binging” and double down on that
* From emmakoslow to Everyone: (09:39 AM)
I notice this a lot on Spotify and Youtube where they both give recommended music or videos to watch based on things I had watched or even googled in the past. While I like having these suggestions, it Is a little unnerving to know someone is watching everything you click and do.
* From Me to Everyone: (09:39 AM)
Yes. YouTube seems to be an amazing algorithm tracker.
* From Natalie Perez to Everyone: (09:40 AM)
I would agree regarding Youtube, I definitely feel like my recommendations have changed based on what I am interested in at the time. it manages to keep up pretty well
* From natalyvaldibia to Everyone: (09:40 AM)
I have seen the same thing with Youtube as well where as I go through phases of what I watch my advertisements and recommended grow with me and go through the phases as well.
* From Me to Everyone: (09:40 AM)
Emma I have the same feeling. Does anyone deliberately try to dupe the system?
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:41 AM)
What I felt that was the most interesting about these preferences is when it said that human preferences are intrinsically unstable or noisy as well — so these algorithms are extremely tune to these implicit ratings because we aren’t directly telling these interfaces what we necessarily want
* From Jane McGrail to Everyone: (09:41 AM)
I found the trap metaphor really useful and interesting especially thinking about the drama in the way a trap unfolds where you have to, to some extent, be a willing participant and follow the behavioral patterns that are expected of you by the trapper
* From Me to Everyone: (09:41 AM)
Shawna, great point. I find that the creepiest of all. If I say I like something, it’s less reliable than what I do with my actions
* From Sabrina Zirkle to Everyone: (09:41 AM)
I think it's cool that Carly has worked with Eyal before! I haven't read all of Hooked and Indiscrationable, but I've listen to a lot of his interviews
* From Me to Everyone: (09:42 AM)
I also liked the trap metaphor. How does the article complicate the metaphor with the anthropological approach?
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:42 AM)
yeah, he’s a really interesting guy. It seems like with his second book, he’s sort of correcting for the behaviors that his first book, Hooked, sort of triggered
* From Me to Everyone: (09:43 AM)
Carly, can you expand a bit on the correcting for the first book ideas?
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:43 AM)
for the trap metaphor with the anthropological approach … it’s described as animalistic almost — that this persuasion is more of a game to trick audiences?
* From Me to Everyone: (09:44 AM)
Yes, traps like a game, etc. I really liked the way Seaver expanded traps to include the physical and cultural contexts.
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:44 AM)
Sure! So in the first book, Hooked, so many SV tech companies exploited human tendencies toward social motivation and addiction to increase engagement with their products (time on apps, etc.)
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:44 AM)
which eyal’s book helped to foreground as a basically an exploitable, valuable human tendency
* From Me to Everyone: (09:44 AM)
One challenge, I think is that when you zoom out—pun intended? It becomes hard to untangle the physical trap from the cultural context that enables it
* From Sabrina Zirkle to Everyone: (09:45 AM)
But sometimes these habit-forming algorithms can be used for good purposes, like with healthcare compliance programs
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:45 AM)
And then in the second book, it was like eval realized the need to correct for some of the extreme behaviors these tech companies exploit—the second book was basically one designed to help people increase their productivity and become “indistractable” or impervious to the “calls” from tech
* From Me to Everyone: (09:46 AM)
I see the exploitation in the title, for sure. I think we have reached a cultural moment where people are more aware of the negative consequences of these hooking behaviors
I like the idea of becoming indistractable. I wonder. How that’s going for everyone.
* From emmakoslow to Everyone: (09:46 AM)
I think this is an era where more and more people are focused on privacy. At the beginning of the dot com revolution this was not the case as everything was just so new.
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:46 AM)
absolutely—that shift I think is recognized in the second book too
* From Me to Everyone: (09:47 AM)
Sabrina, good point. I think anything that can be critiqued for negative shaping of behavior probably can have the opposite effects if put to good use
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:47 AM)
Its more of a “this tech is here to stay, so how do we successfully and humanely live with it/make it work for us and not against us” kind of thing
* From Natalie Perez to Everyone: (09:47 AM)
I agree. I think since a lot more people are aware now, there’s more of an internal effort to attempt to combat that, regardless of whether it’s always successful or not
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:48 AM)
I think hooking behaviors are necessary for certain companies to stay afloat as well.. there is a purpose to it (just like an advertising agency would say)
* From Me to Everyone: (09:48 AM)
I wonder if the new awareness is on the part of the public more than the app makers now? Or do things like screen time monitors really derive from positive intentions of corporations?
* From Me to Everyone: (09:48 AM)
Yes, Is it the job of people selling products to make decisions about the best behaviors or their screen clients?
* From emmakoslow to Everyone: (09:49 AM)
Exactly. Everyone is trying overcome it and trying to find ways to find privacy online but the issue is that it is not a group of computers behind these websites, it is a group of people who do have access to anything people use it for
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:49 AM)
I think its kind of a co-evolution between the public and corporations
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:49 AM)
if there is competition in our capitalist society, which there is plenty i think companies to remain ethical but still use hooking tools with the audience in the loop as well
* From Me to Everyone: (09:49 AM)
Do you think we are a unique population in terms of being more aware of these hooking behaviors than the general public?
* From emmakoslow to Everyone: (09:49 AM)
How do you guys think this will change in the future? Will it become less ethical in how it is used?
* From Me to Everyone: (09:49 AM)
Or perhaps than teens, etc.
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:50 AM)
It has made me more aware of when I’m being “manipulated” but i still let it happen (aka netflix recommendations, etc)
* From Jane McGrail to Everyone: (09:50 AM)
I agree. I think that because people are increasingly more aware of how their data is being used, but I do think that depends on age and social context. And also how useful the app or whatever is and whether that usefulness outweighs ethical concerns about the data
* From Me to Everyone: (09:50 AM)
Emma, I wonder as well. In Europe, there is a bit more regulation and oversight about privacy. It seems like there will need many approaches—public, regulation, companies, etc.
* From emmakoslow to Everyone: (09:50 AM)
I know in high school and middle school we had lectures about data being used and our “digital footprint"
* From Natalie Perez to Everyone: (09:50 AM)
I think some aspects of this awareness could possibly come with maturity. One who is younger may not actively notice hooking behaviors as one with more experience would
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:51 AM)
I’m optimistic. I think that hooking behaviors have increasing visibility with the general public and that because of that, companies will be more ethical about how they’re using them
* From Me to Everyone: (09:51 AM)
I like the sense of optimism. I also wonder if things are that different than when people were duped by elixir sales in the early 20th century, etc.
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:51 AM)
not necessicarily because of something altruistic, but because the customers demand it (transparency about corp motivation/creation of services that really serve)
* From Me to Everyone: (09:52 AM)
Carly, I hope that is true. And I think it gives the kind of work that happens in classes and among educators more importance. Literacy is still a key thing for the public to attain. Now it includes data
* From emmakoslow to Everyone: (09:53 AM)
It is kind of becoming the latest form of commericials. Now a days since less and less people have cable and more are turning to streaming services. The typical commercials made to grasp our attention is dying out. Advertisers are taking this chance to a appeal to a new group and form.
* From Isabelle Smith to Everyone: (09:53 AM)
can’t hear anything trouble shooting!
* From Me to Everyone: (09:53 AM)
Let’s switch gears for a few minutes. I want to talk about the idea in the article that tools embody agency.
We discussed this in class when we looked at the desktop metaphor for computing
So, my question is: what kind of agencies does Zoom embody?
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:55 AM)
Well the article suggest that the computers as tools to manage large information like board posts … obviously we still with Zoom get to meet as a class even in a pandemic so that is extremely advanced — i feel like the entirety of america going on online classes (middle and high school too) is a huge social experiment
* From Me to Everyone: (09:55 AM)
Agreed. A social experiment for sure
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:55 AM)
how is our education really being augmented by being with our loved ones and having direct family support while learning
* From Sabrina Zirkle to Everyone: (09:56 AM)
The technology is both a tool of agency but also creates a digital divide. I've been kicked off classes because both my dad and I need to use the internet for work and school.
* From Me to Everyone: (09:56 AM)
I like that a lot. I guess that is built into the zoom paradigm. Your housemates are in on the class in some ways. Definitely new metaphors for the space of learning
* From Me to Everyone: (09:57 AM)
I agree, Sabrina. Access is a huge issue. In some ways access to a university may be similar, but here the issues seem new and not sorted out as well
Is it fair to use a metaphor of a class or classroom to discuss zoom interactions?
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (09:58 AM)
really good questions. I also feel like zoom enables more choice/opt-in on the part of the student. You can really choose how much you’re engaged, more than you can in a normal class. It seems like the extremes are emphasized/more apparent. I.e. you can sit in a zoom class totally disengaged with everything off while you wander around your house OR you can really really be active and participatory in a way that demands more than maybe the typical classroom setting
* From Me to Everyone: (09:58 AM)
Good point, Carly. In some ways, turning off the camera or microphone is cast as a responsible behavior in zoom to keep others less distracted
* From Natalie Perez to Everyone: (09:59 AM)
I agree with the terminology of this being a “social experiment.” I do wonder if this will have any effect on schooling once our current conditions are improved. and whether this will result in these kinds of technologies being utilized more often or not. i agree that these technologies give students more choice regarding how they would like to utilize the tools for learning
* From Jane McGrail to Everyone: (09:59 AM)
I agree that access is a huge consideration when thinking about tools like Zoom. In some ways it’s making education more accessible, but in other ways it’s becoming less accessible for people without reliable internet access, etc.
* From Me to Everyone: (09:59 AM)
I wonder if the new normal of mic-off unless talking, check in and out as is helpful says less about zoom and more about some of the limits of our traditional classes?
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (09:59 AM)
I do like that these interface, using the internet as primary means of learning do suggest ways in which education now is taken to personal responsibility to dictate how much you are getting out of it — which is affected by factors such as home life, area lived in, tech advantages or disadvantages
* From Me to Everyone: (10:00 AM)
Natalie and all. I find this fascinating to think about. So can we start by saying Zoom gives more agency to the student than the instructor?
* From Me to Everyone: (10:01 AM)
I suppose, the instructor who sets up the session still has plenty of control with how participants can interact
* From Me to Everyone: (10:02 AM)
So, one thing I found interesting from your responses to the reading was the points that were made about the massive amount of data we are providing to zoom. Right now, we are sending them information about our writing habits—chat—as well as the writing itself
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (10:02 AM)
but I do think the student has more agency in some way, than in a traditional classroom hierarchy. Zoom still affords authority to the instructor, as a host/meeting leader, but also distributes a little more agency to the students because of necessity of participating/opting in in the right way
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (10:03 AM)
I think zoom is definitely taking extreme notes on how we are using its program and probably to increase its capacity and functions
* From Me to Everyone: (10:03 AM)
I like the idea of agency being more distributed. I think that’s true and of high value.
* From Isabelle Smith to Everyone: (10:03 AM)
I’m curious to see if people are more interested in using zoom after quarantines and social distancing are over. will it become commonplace?
* From Carly Schnitzler to Everyone: (10:04 AM)
^same!
* From Natalie Perez to Everyone: (10:04 AM)
I agree. I think the agency may be more evenly distributed now in some aspects, since both students and instructors have some level of control over “the classroom” within this platform
* From Me to Everyone: (10:04 AM)
Shawna, and all. I don’t think we need to worry, but if you were a bit of a worrier about these things, you could easily see how some negative aspects could follow from the data being collected
* From Me to Everyone: (10:05 AM)
I think it will become more common in some ways. There are lots of historical analogs—telegraph, phone, radio. Majors social disruptors that get adapted and woven into everyday activities
* From Me to Everyone: (10:06 AM)
At some point, we may also develop fatigue from these methods and long for the face-to-face connection. It may also depend on our individual sensibilities
* From Shawna Sheperd to Everyone: (10:07 AM)
If Zoom became more commonplace i feel like work in the adult world will interrupt home life a lot more … just if you are having a sick day or a child is sick there really isn’t an excuse not to log on to the computer and call in?
* From Me to Everyone: (10:07 AM)
And there may be some generational aspects as well.
Good point, Shawna. And a little disconcerting.
* From Natalie Perez to Everyone: (10:07 AM)
I wonder if this will affect interest in online schooling; whether or not this will increase interest or decrease it, and how come
* From Me to Everyone: (10:08 AM)
If you have final thoughts, go ahead and write them up. In a second, I’ll jump back on with screen sharing and go over our next assignment